Archie: does divorce hurt your kids?

We talk to Archie, a substance abuse counselor, nationally ranked yo-yoer, and the son of Isabel from Episode 4. He has eight divorces in his immediate family, including his own parents'. He tells us about going through addiction and recovery programs, and how lucky he was to have all of his parents and step-parents showing up for him during treatment. At the end of the episode, Maxson and Emily ask each other: do we think we would have a nice divorce?

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Do you have any advice for couples who are getting divorced that have kids?

SPEAKER_04 0:04

I think the first thing I'd say is congratulations, your life is substantially harder. I'm very sorry.

SPEAKER_03 0:15

Welcome to Should We Get Married.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

My name is Emily Carter.

SPEAKER_03 0:18

My name is Maxim Gerecki.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

And in this podcast, we're trying to figure out if we are going to get legally married to each other.

SPEAKER_03 0:25

Or stay dating forever.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

What's up with people playing? It's so cool these days.

SPEAKER_02 0:33

Today's guest is Archie. He is a substance abuse counselor, nationally ranked yo-yoer, model, and child of divorce. And not just any divorce, he is the son of Isabel, who we talked to in episode three.

SPEAKER_03 0:45

Let's get into it. Max and tell me about how we got Archie on the show. So we did this episode with Isabel, his mom, and it was the first episode that he has listened to from the show. And then after he listened to it, he reached out to me because we know each other, and he said, Hey, I love the episode, but I have opinions on this independently, and I'd love an opportunity to share.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

It's cool to get the parent and the child on the same show.

SPEAKER_03 1:14

You know, I can really see that Archie is his mom's son. He has a zen to him that reminds me a lot of her relationship with this experience of getting divorced. And like they both share this idea of hey, painful that it happened, but I don't regret that it happened. And I'm into the life that I have now, and none of that would be possible without this.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

I really like when people use hard experiences in their life to gain wisdom and share it with people rather than let it harden them or like block them from the world. I feel like both of them are very generous in the way they talk about it.

SPEAKER_03 1:50

Totally. Super fun conversation, and thanks, Archie, for doing it with us.

SPEAKER_02 1:54

Let's get into it.

SPEAKER_04 2:13

So I'd like to think I have a very interesting perspective as to what marriage can look like or what after marriage can look like specifically.

SPEAKER_03 2:21

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

Tell us about the eight divorces. What is what do you mean?

SPEAKER_04 2:25

My father's parents have been divorced. My mom's father was divorced, so that's two. And then both of my mom's grandparents got my dad's grandparents got divorced. So that's two divorces from dad, one divorce from mom. My stepdad has been divorced before he met my mom. My mom has been divorced, obviously. And my dad has been divorced three times. So that makes eight. Wow, that's it. I think I only have two relatives I'm related to directly that haven't been divorced, that aren't my siblings.

SPEAKER_03 2:55

Whoa.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

It's almost like divorce is the norm for you more than everlasting love is the norm.

SPEAKER_03 3:01

Your mom was in an earlier episode with us. Your mom is amazing. Loved her story, love her as a person.

SPEAKER_04 3:07

I should note also, I have never and will never read the book that is about my parents' divorce. I will never read that book. A lot of my friends have read that book, um, and I often give it to people to read, uh-huh, but very intentionally, I have never read that book.

SPEAKER_03 3:22

I'm curious about that. I've read the book. I read the book after we did the interview. So I'm I'm so curious why you have this aversion to reading it.

SPEAKER_04 3:29

I'm the only one who has like concrete memory of my mom and my dad being together as a family unit.

SPEAKER_03 3:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:36

And I kind of want to keep that as that. Like, I want like it, it is everyone's, you know, like with social media and stuff, it's all changed, but like for years and years and years, your early childhood memories were just these sort of like vaguely remembered pieces of time, and I have like one or two super vivid memories from this point. But generally, like there's a lot of like sort of like fuzz around it, and I want to keep it that way. I don't want my experience, my early childhood, to be super colored by, granted, someone I love, respect, and totally trust her to be honest, but my mom's opinion of it. Um, even though I know for a fact it is not a super opinion book, my mom was very, very, very good at writing a story about divorce that was not just trashing on my dad, which I'm very grateful for, and I will touch more on that later. But um, yeah, that's sort of why I haven't read it.

SPEAKER_03 4:26

Yeah. Speaking of Emily's language.

SPEAKER_04 4:28

I just remember seeing it at Starbucks and being like, oh, that's my mom's book. Whoa. A lot of people in my periphery in my life had read the book and now knew more about my life than I did. Wow. I had teachers say that they'd read my mom's book before, and then getting very weird about the premise of like, for instance, like my dad showing up to school to pick me up. And that being and I remember thinking, and that could have just been my head and it being an occasion for me, having my dad who lived out of state, picking me up from school. But I do remember there just being this odd sort of like piece of information that I now knew was because they were aware that my dad had had an affair.

SPEAKER_03 5:05

How old were you when your parents decided like first encountered the issues and then decided to separate?

SPEAKER_04 5:11

So my parents separated when I was four. Okay. And I remember just coming to New York City for Christmas and then being like, when am I gonna go back home? And mom just sort of being like, This is home now.

SPEAKER_03 5:23

Do you remember feeling scared at all or uncomfortable with the move or with any of the changes?

SPEAKER_04 5:29

I think I was young enough to understand that something was changing, and I was very confused by the premise of having someone that was my dad spiritually, but no longer my dad, like legally. And I remember even like, so like when my stepdad told me and my little brother that he was gonna marry my mom, that was when I found out that she was no longer married to my dad. Or like it was definitely told to me before, but I just remember that conversation of me being like, oh, this is something that can happen. Like, this is like a like you can be married and then not be married anymore. And then you can also marry someone else. So I absolutely was just like flabbergasted by the concept that I could just have another dad. I really, really love my stepdad like more than anything. There was, I would like to say there is never I have never had a problem with a stepparent ever.

SPEAKER_03 6:19

Do you remember your parents like sitting you down and telling you that you're not gonna be like living in the same house as both of them at the same time?

SPEAKER_04 6:26

I think it was just like we're moving, and then I communicated with my dad via like letters and phone calls.

SPEAKER_02 6:34

Do you wish that your parents had like figured out a way to stick it out for you and your childhood?

SPEAKER_04 6:39

No. Like straight up no. I'm very I don't want to say I'm grateful that my parents got divorced because I think it was a lot of pain on both parties' ends. And I do think that like, God, like the not a great personal quote might right now, but Louis C.K. has a fantastic line where he says, like, no good marriage has ever ended in divorce. And I really like that is like rocked me to my core when I heard it because I was like, this is this was supposed to happen.

SPEAKER_02 7:05

Why do you think that Louis C.K. line impacted you or stuck with you?

SPEAKER_04 7:09

It just caused me way more pain wondering the what if and being like, what if they had worked it out? What if my dad lived closer to me? What if my parents still lived together? And then just getting it like put out so plainly to me of going like, but it didn't, and it never was going to. Like this is not a like, this is not something that was ever supposed to be. Yep. I get a lot of comfort in that. I get a lot of comfort in the idea that like it was never in the cards.

SPEAKER_03 7:36

I mean, what do you think happened to your dad? Do you think your dad fell out of love with your mom? Do you think your dad made a mistake? Like, you think he made he didn't make a mistake?

SPEAKER_04 7:44

I don't think he made a mistake because it ended up resulting in like, like, I have a sister because of that. I think in a lot of ways I'm very similar to my dad. And there's a lot of pieces of me that I had discovered far later in my life, as like, oh, that's a dad thing that's mine. I love my stepdad to death. It is very clear that we are not related in some ways. It's very clear that he raised me, but there are some things that are so innate to him that are just not. My stepdad counts his sock drawer every night and like makes sure that nothing is missing. Like, my stepdad is the most like fine-tooth comb person you've ever met. And I am so not like that. My life feels like it is constantly like, I'm like sort of like in this constant, like, I feel like I'm just constantly like dropping things, and my life is just a kind of a constant bid against my own terrible executive function. Finding out later that that is very much a my dad thing and not something that really is like not something. It's like there are a lot of things I thought were just sort of wrong with me that turns out were just like the other 50% of me that I just sort of had to learn how to deal with. And I think one of the things, like the impulsivity and sort of the like line of decisions that I think causes someone to make a decision like my dad did, live with inside me. Like they definitely are part of me. I have never felt a super strong urge to ever like cheat on a partner, but I have a long history with substance abuse, and I've made very selfish decisions that have harmed other people in my life. Um, try to own up for it, absolutely. But those are things that like I can look back up my parental family tree and be like, oh yeah, that's something that my dad has done before. That is something that my dad's dad has done before. And there's this weird, like a line of like a type of decision making I'm capable of doing that is I can trace directly back to my dad. And also I don't think my dad's a bad person for it. I think he just legitimately like it is a type of person that I also happen to be. And I think when unchecked or ununderstood at a young enough age, you end up making decisions that are, you know, impulsive and selfish.

SPEAKER_03 9:59

One of the things people say in regard to divorce is oh, like you have to stay, you guys have to stay, stay together, or else your kids are gonna be all messed up, stay together for the sake of the family, stay together for the mental health of the children, blah, blah, blah. And you just explain to us that had they stayed together, it probably would have been like so.

SPEAKER_04 10:18

I'll say this like I am a very learning disabled, never did good in school, I'm a meth addict, I have history with like sex work. I have like, if you look at my life historically, you see someone who was kind of a fuck up and did and was fucked up. I think that would have existed if my parents stayed together, if they didn't stay together. Like it just I the amount of like my own personal stuff, like I it's a very common thing you'll hear in like recovery circles. I wasn't thinking about daddy cheating on mommy when I was like lighting up a meth pipe for the first time. It was just like a decision I made. Damn. And I just it's so intense, dude. Yeah, no, sorry, but that is that that is sort of the case where it's like I don't think that is a part of the divorce. I think that like I don't think the divorce affected that. And one of the beautiful things about what I've seen and how divorce can really be functional, and I'll get on this later, is that like when I was sick, my parents completely dropped their shit and helped me out. My dad, my stepdad, my mom, they all like they fucking went to Utah, they met me in my treatment program, my therapist actually pulled me aside and said, You have no idea how fucking lucky you have it that your parents are able, like, you don't need to be a mediator. You're you don't his my therapist didn't meet it need to be a mediator. And the fact that they were all able to like connect and like help me out when I was like really not okay, is like I think if you're gonna take away anything from what I'm saying this in this whole podcast is that like it didn't matter that my parents got divorced for me. Like it just straight up did not matter because everything I needed from them, they were able to provide.

SPEAKER_03 12:02

Yeah. Wow. I mean, that's a really powerful that's really powerful. Like the even this image of more than one set of parents being able to be there for you is incredible. Like it sounds like this divorce experience is not what led you to make these difficult choices that I'm sure have taught you a lot. You had like genetics in you and a whole bunch of other things going on, but it's not like you were quote unquote damaged from the divorce. And if anything, you were able to have that many more hands on deck to support you when you needed it. And that's really interesting.

SPEAKER_04 12:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:37

No, I feel like one of the big uncoverings here from this episode, this or from this conversation with you is of course, the way that people get divorced can be damaging. And the way that people get divorced can be maybe neutral, maybe slightly uplifting. I don't know if it inspired you to want to, you know, treat your partners better even during conflict. But like that's important. You know, it's not just people want to like reduce the nuance to just don't get divorced because it's gonna mess your kid up. And that's just not true. Like that's at least in this instance, like that's not true. And that's really powerful.

SPEAKER_04 13:13

I think people treat the institution of divorce as something that is the thing that ruins relationships. And I think if there's anything I want to say on this, it's that people ruin relationships. If you're not letting your kids talk to another parent, if you are in an active custody battle over your kids, that's not because of divorce, that's because you're a shitty person. And you probably shouldn't have made several choices to lead you up to this point. Because in the same way that I think my parents should have gotten divorced, I also think they should have you shouldn't get married if that is a liability you foresee. That if you feel like you are going to have to custody battle for your kids, like that is the like big thing. Because as soon as you divorce someone, there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to have a like your kids should be able to have a completely normal and like comfortable upbringing. Because like at the end of the day, what marriage is, is is a like like people say that divorce is the end of the promise of marriage, they'll be together forever. No, you're still gonna be together forever because you have kids and financial responsibility shared. Like people open businesses together, people create all of these things that like mesh people's lives together, and they don't just go away because of the incredibly expensive and long-lasting process that is divorce. It actually like you still need to deal with the other person forever.

SPEAKER_03 14:42

That's a really good point.

SPEAKER_02 14:44

The divorce itself is like, okay, we can move on from that and be like, what's the behavior around this that's actually impacting people?

SPEAKER_03 14:49

Yeah. I mean, you mentioned like, oh, you know, shitty people are doing the bad divorces. I do want to acknowledge, like, I think that life can really surprise you. And we've had conversations with people who are completely shocked at the person that they decided to marry. And like having read the book, it's obvious that both of your parents were incredibly thoughtful about how they decided to separate. And just situations can be really difficult. And I would hate to label people who are having an acrimonious divorce as quote unquote shitty people, because I think it's just more complicated than that. You know, I think that it could happen to a lot of people.

SPEAKER_04 15:21

This was my whole sort of spiel. I just went on, it's sort of unnuanced because I do get sick of people blaming as the culprit for this. Yeah. Like, there is actively times when like things change majorly, and like there is going to be divorce is absolutely un but also like acrimonious divorces, I think, can be more avoided than they like. I there was a kid in my wilderness program who I remember his parents were in this like years-long custody battle over him. And it was very much like this thing where it was like like you do have a kid, you have these like, yes, there is like circumstances that maybe weren't foreseen when they chose to have the kid or when they chose to get married, but at the same time, you're here and you are making someone's life substantially worse. And you know that you like this kid had been into wilderness several times, and like your kid is actively struggling in a way that, like, you know, y'all kind of need to figure your shit out because y'all can't be like, if y'all can't be in the same room together, and he has to have like it just there gets to a point where it's like there does need to be a baseline, like there's a third party involved, and that is something where it's like important for me. And yeah, the part the problem is like the parties when there can't be a there isn't, like if someone gets married and their partner ends up being a criminal or a like all of those things where it's like that can't happen. I think that's a different thing entirely. But in a divorce where like both parties are fundamentally able to participate in society in a way that is lawful and safe, I do think there needs to be more conversations about like how to have divorces that don't like just burn things down.

SPEAKER_03 17:06

Something that we heard from a friend was you should only marry someone who you think you would have like a nice divorce with, which really stuck with me. Where it's like, are they the kind of person that even if you're just not supposed to be together anymore, you're not gonna be together anymore, are they gonna be as nice as they possibly can to you? Are they gonna try and share with you? Are they gonna try and support you financially? Are they gonna try and make it easy for you to see your child? That's a really interesting barometer for whether or not you should get married that um I find really, I don't know, really touching. And a lot of people would probably not like to think about that as they go into their marriage. And that's why we get a lot of pushback on this show is because the show is kind of a version of that of like really figuring out all these different stories.

SPEAKER_04 17:51

So I'm as old as my dad was when he got married for the first time. Whoa. Oh my gosh. And I think I'm coming up to the age when he got divorced for the first time. But all that being said, if I got married today, I do not think that relationship would work out terribly well. I don't know if I'd be able to handle it. And but I also could see myself being so enamored with someone that I would make that choice. So that is like the first line of like empathy there, where it's like, I can totally see how I could make the same thing. I just because I've seen it, my older sister saw it, just because I have like very clean evidence that is not a good idea. There's still a part of me that feels like I have the capacity to make that choice.

SPEAKER_02 18:31

I would love to know how you imagine marriage in your life. Is it something that you want?

SPEAKER_04 18:36

I'd like a wedding. Those seem fucking sick. I'd really love to have a wedding. As far as marriage goes, I think it is a really nice thing to think about. And I really like the idea of meeting someone and then building a life with them and that life and having a like life partner, because I do think that is very important. I've seen a lot of marriages not work out, but I've also seen marriages work very well in my life. And I do believe that like marriage till death can absolutely be a thing. My grandparents on my mom's side have had a like really lovely, long-lasting marriage. My step-grandparents for my stepdad, both of my dad's parents' remarriage ended up being very good fits that have gone on until uh my respective grandfathers passed. So I like do believe it. I believe that like marriage can be successful, but I believe it's the same thing like any relationship can be successful. I mean, any relationship can last forever.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

Yeah. Do you have any advice or uh message for couples who are getting divorced that have kids?

SPEAKER_04 19:41

I think the first thing I'd say is like congratulations, your life is substantially harder. I'm very sorry. I think the other thing is that like, do you love your kid more than you have problems with the other person? And if the answer is anything other than yes, I think you should keep on working on it until the answer is yes. Because, like, if that kid gets sick, if that kid needs to go to rehab, if that kid ends up having any problem that needs both members of the support there, y'all need to be able to show up for this person in the best way possible. I like that.

SPEAKER_03 20:22

So, Archie, you know me, you know Emily. Not the most in the world, but a bit. You have had various life experiences that have brought you to an understanding of relationships and stuff in your own life. Do you think that Emily and I should get legally married?

SPEAKER_04 20:42

I think my answer to this was gonna be doesn't matter because y'all kind of already have made that's already kind of half like y'all already have the enmeshed time. Y'all been together for how many years now? Four and a half.

SPEAKER_02 20:53

Almost five.

SPEAKER_04 20:55

Almost five years, that's half a decade. Like, y'all have the like, it's I think it would be very hard for you guys to completely rid each other out of each other's lives. I actually don't under know y'all's relationships super well, but I have a suspicion that if you've been together with someone for five years, it would be very hard to like hard cut off that person for your life and like start again. The the answer is like, yeah, it doesn't really matter, but also I think fundamentally, like the wedding would be cool. I'd show up to that. Like solely for that reason, yeah, I get married. I wanna I want to see what y'all do for a wedding. I think y'all throw good parties. I know that.

SPEAKER_03 21:33

Like, but if you had to make like an actual call on legally getting married. Yeah, why not? Right? We'll take it under advisement.

SPEAKER_04 21:43

I like the idea of like we brought on a professional younger to talk about divorce. That's a fun, fun one.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

Do people call it finger skating?

SPEAKER_03 21:52

No, but that's a I like that. All right, man. This was so fun. Archie. Thank you. Thanks for coming on. Thank you. Super generous of you to share your life. With us, and you're super cool. And if I had a kid, I'd be turns out like you because you're epic.

SPEAKER_04 22:06

That's so sweet. Thank you guys so much. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03 22:20

Well, in terms of this idea that we touched on, which is you should only get married to someone who you think you would have a nice divorce with, which I'm really into as an idea. Like, where do you think we fall on that, Emily?

SPEAKER_02 22:34

In my head, like you just you don't know how these things go. I'm sure in every divorce, someone looks around and they're like, How the hell did we get here? And we loved each other and we were respectful and kind toward each other. Like, how are we in this situation? And I imagine the most telling thing is less so looking at the dynamic that you two share, because that can change pretty quickly, and more looking at the paper trail of that person's life. And like, are they someone that like tortures things to the ground, has a lot of anger and resentment toward people that they feel wronged by, have has like burned bridges in their lifetime? Like to me, that's more telling to how a divorce will go more than like how you treat each other day to day. Because I'm sure people end up in divorces where they are very surprised by the intensity and unfairness and unkindness that's happening.

SPEAKER_03 23:20

Uh-huh. Okay. Well, how do you think I am? Do you think that like where do I fall on that assessment so far?

SPEAKER_02 23:27

I do not find you to be a torch something to the ground person. I find you to be very fair and empathetic and easy to disagree with. And I think that you disagree with people well in your life. So I think you would be fair and kind, but who knows? I'm sure I'm saying all of this with like literally no experience with divorce in my life, other than like friends' parents who I didn't know all that well.

SPEAKER_03 23:49

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think a big part of why we like each other is because we have these traits that seem to indicate that we will be nice to each other. But I agree that it's really hard to know. It's we've never been in that situation before. But we have been in situations that are like difficult, you know. We talk about it like in the couples therapy episode that we have gone through challenges and we go through challenges all the time. And I think for the most part, we're decently good at being nice to each other throughout challenges. I feel like what last night we were watching a show and you wanted to end the show 14 minutes early, and I was completely shocked and aghast that you think that it's appropriate to just like stop watching a show that you've committed to watching. I was really shocked by that. But I was still somewhat nice to you during that, and then you were somewhat somewhat nice to me during that. Although I do feel a little embarrassed that I was so upset about that. Like maybe that's bad. Maybe it's an indication that I do have some shit to work on. But like we fight in a kind of a nice, a decent way, I would say. Do you agree with that?

SPEAKER_02 24:54

I think we're good at making fun of ourselves as we're fighting and like clowning with our emotions. If we're misrepresenting something or embellishing to like get our point across, that's a rare occurrence. And if someone calls it out, the other person is pretty quick to be like, Yeah, you're right, that wasn't a fair assessment of what happened. And then you're not like you don't lose because you like misspoke or yeah.

unknown 25:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

And another thing. I think we like don't drag stuff from the past into the present. Like if we're focused on something, usually we're like pretty focused on that thing. And there's very little like, well, these three things happened that I didn't bring up before. And then things don't go snowball.

SPEAKER_03 25:32

Yeah. It just feels like we follow good rules of fighting. But all is fair in love and war. That's a whole that expression is really unusual. I don't know if that's true. And I would love to talk to people who are going through divorce about if that's true or not, because I don't think all is fair in love and war. I think there are still rules.

SPEAKER_02 25:47

I actually don't know what it what does that mean?

SPEAKER_03 25:49

I think it means you can do anything you want in in times of love and in times of war. So like that if you think that's true, I think that's a little crazy. There should still be rules.

SPEAKER_02 25:59

Basically, it means that in matters of warfare in love, whether or not something is fair or right is eval irrelevant. Your sole concern should be to win, and it doesn't matter if your actions harm other people along the way. Used to describe a situation which people do not follow the usual rules of behavior and do things that are normally considered unfair. What would be an unfair thing in love?

SPEAKER_03 26:19

An unfair thing in love?

SPEAKER_02 26:21

Yeah, what's an example?

SPEAKER_03 26:23

Um, I'm supposed to hang out with my friend Tyler, but I'm like, oh, I just fell in love with Emily, so it's like, sorry, Tyler, I'm not gonna go have dinner with you. I don't know. That's kind of how I've understood it.

SPEAKER_02 26:33

Yeah, I actually I disagree with the statement. I've never actually thought about what it meant.

SPEAKER_03 26:36

Yeah. Do you often say stuff that you don't understand?

SPEAKER_02 26:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:41

Right, that's awesome. Right. Right, no, completely. Got it. No, I love platitudes. No, she does love. No, but seriously, guys, she does love platitudes.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

One in the hand is worth two in the bird.

SPEAKER_03 26:54

That's right. Yeah. Kill two birds with one bird. Kill two stems with a bird.

SPEAKER_02 26:59

Okay, Maxon, is this conversation putting a small pebble in the bucket of get married or a pebble in the bucket of don't get married?

SPEAKER_03 27:06

I am definitely putting my pebble in the bucket of get married. Archie is great. Yes, he's undergone some struggles, but I really think that his point that it's just about the way that people get divorced, that's the thing that's really challenging. And I feel with you, we've got a we've got a decent shot. You know, we have decent reps, we there's no way to predict the future, but we have, I think it's a good shot. I feel better about having a nice divorce from you than I feel with anybody else. For me, it's a pebble in the bucket of getting married. Emily, what about you?

SPEAKER_02 27:38

I found this conversation more looking at the buckets of have kids or don't have kids. That feels like more we're focusing. But if I'm going to bring it back to marriage, I will put a pebble in the get married bucket. Similarly, I think that I would like to have kids and I would like to have them grow up in a home of two loving parents and a community of people around them who love them. Barring that, I will do my very best to be like extremely loving to them and give them a loving environment. Even if that means that we separate, which I do not want to happen. Yeah, I trust our conflict resolution and repair systems, and I think we will do a good job no matter what happens.

SPEAKER_03 28:22

Well, there you have it, folks. Two small pebbles weighing in the bucket of get married. Goodbye. Bye. Should We Get Married is an original series by Easily Wowed and Bad Cooley Productions. This episode was created by me, Max Injerecki. And me, Emily Carter. And our producer, Ramoy Phillip.

SPEAKER_02 28:45

Theme music is the song Fake Romantic by the band Melt, logo and brand design by Madeline Vogue.

SPEAKER_03 28:51

Sound design and mixing by Ramoy Phillip.

SPEAKER_02 28:54

There are so many of you out there who are asking these exact same questions, and we don't all have to investigate marriage on our own. Subscribe to Should We Get Married and learn with us as we make our decision.

SPEAKER_03 29:03

See you next time.