Rabbi Ben: is friction good in a marriage?

We talk to Rabbi Ben Spratt, Emily's beloved family rabbi, about the Jewish idea that restriction is what makes something sacred: that you haven't really made a choice until you've also chosen what you're not going to do. He also tells us about some "Epic Jewish Stuff" like Onah, a 1,600-year-old Talmudic law obligating husbands to sexually pleasure their wives. At the end of the episode, Rabbi Ben puts Maxson and Emily on the spot, asking each of them how the other has called them into a better version of themselves.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

So there's a frame in Judaism that the only pathway to wisdom is to sit in learning in the context of a relationship with someone that you disagree with.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

Welcome to Should We Get Married.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

My name is Emily Carter.

SPEAKER_02 0:18

My name is Maxim Gerecki.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

And in this podcast, we're trying to figure out if we should get legally married to each other.

SPEAKER_02 0:24

Or stay dating forever.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

What's up with people playing? It's so cool these days. Today's guest is Rabbi Ben Spratt, senior rabbi at the temple that I grew up going to in New York City, Rodef Shalom. He is wise and awesome. And in this conversation, he helps us understand marriage through a spiritual lens.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Let's get into it. Do you feel Jewish? Like, would you just add a word you would use to describe yourself?

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Yeah, I do feel Jewish. I think I've had sort of a bit of a journey with it. And I read an amazing book a couple years ago that brought me back called Here All Along that just reframed what Judaism is to me. And for me, now it's sort of like an ethical practice. It's sort of how I show up in the world and treat people, how I act when no one's looking.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

Yeah. I remember you describing pieces of the book to me. And I really liked this one thing that you mentioned, which was there's some rule, some Jewish rule, where if you are having a party on Friday and you know that Billy is not free on Friday, then you can't invite him to your party knowing that he's going to decline because he's not free if you didn't want him to come to the party in the first place. Like you're not allowed to get that credit, you know, that stolen valor of inviting someone. And I'm like, I like that rule. Like, I don't like, I think that that's straight up dastardly if you do stuff like that. And I'm excited for you guys to get to know some of the stuff that we learned about the Katuba and Ona and breaking the glass and all these things that you know I didn't really know about. Hope you guys like the conversation. Here's our chat with Rabbi Ben Spratt. Thank you, Ben. We are here with Rabbi Ben. Uh, thank you for joining us, Rabbi. Emily, what's the story behind us being on on on the show with Rabbi Ben? And also, is that how you are nomenclature, Rabbi Ben? Perfect. Okay, epic. Yeah, Emily, give us this, give us the lowdown.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Um, so my family grew up going to a congregation Rhoda Shalom on the upper west side. And it was a big part of my life. I went to Hebrew school there. We went to high holidays there. And I remember Ben like halfway through my Hebrew school experience sort of starting to pop up and be around. I don't know if exactly that timing tracks, but in the last, it sounds like couple years, Rabbi Ben has become the lead rabbi. There are very few people in my family that have like kind of halo lore around them, where if their name comes up, everyone's like, oh, we love him. And Ben is probably one of three of those people where everyone is just very in awe of him and think he's a really special, amazing person. And when we were thinking about having a religious leader to bring a more like spiritual perspective to the marriage conversation, he was immediately the first person I thought of.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

Rabbi Ben, what is it like to have so probably so many people when your name comes up in conversation for them to have that exact same reaction of, oh my God, he's the best? Like that, I feel like you've got to be in the top 1% of people who, when their name is mentioned, people have like a reference.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Does that get old? I I would I would don't worry. There are plenty of people where my name comes up, it's it's not the uh the halo of joy. It's something, the, the, the moniker, I would say, of misery. But um but in general, I think part of the blessing is I get to be in a community and I get to grow up with people. I've been here now for 25 years in one capacity or another. And and so those textures that layer over time, it's hard to replicate that in a world where we're so migratory and transient and things. And so I I do feel like there is a gift of just thickness of relationship. And you know, we Emily, we like we've been together in joyous times and then really heartbreaking times, and and that strengthens a bond that just can't really be replicated. Emily, what grief what grief is is Rabbi been referring to?

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Aaron Powell My grandparents passing away, people passing away in our extended network, my mom's close friends, things like that.

SPEAKER_02 4:19

I'm really curious for us to get into how you think about marriage from a religious perspective and also as someone who counsels people. Emily, do you want to, you know, you want to kick us off?

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Sure. Yeah. Then are you married?

SPEAKER_00 4:34

I am indeed. Uh 20 years now. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Yeah. Got married here at Road of Shalom. Um and, you know, and it's interesting because I I'm the product of an interfaith marriage. You know, so I grew up in Sullick City, Utah. My dad was Mormon, my mom Jewish. Wow. And their marriage prompted my mom's family, who were Orthodox Jews in Israel, to disown her. And, you know, and so I think what's interesting is, you know, religion, which tends to like pop up, at least in conversation around marriage, it is often something that's wielded as a wedge and a divider. And I definitely felt that growing up. Um, that my parents getting married was somehow anathema. It was uh somehow an opposition to the idea of what should be. Um and uh in some ways that shaped a lot of my philosophy of like how I look at love and marriage. Um, because I would say my sense of Jewishness is a direct product of my both my parents, um, and my understanding of what creates a strong marriage is an extension of that as well. And a lot of that comes from how do we look at difference. Aaron Powell Why did you guys decide to get married to each other rather than date each other but be committed? So this is actually gets into the really heart of our relationship. So we'll just dive right in because I, you know, after Salt Lake City, I I we moved to Eugene, Oregon, which is kind of a very liberal hippie town. And I grew up in an environment where marriage was seen as an extension of a patriarchal system. Uh there was, I think, just a lot of general kind of like scorn, um, and I would say antipathy towards the institution of marriage. And my now wife Micah and I were dating for a number of years. Understandably, she was like, okay, I think it's time. We're ready. We know we want to spend our life together, let's get engaged. And I said, Whoa, whoa. I I'm not I'm not that kind of patriarchal guy. I'm not trying to own you. I don't need to put a ring on that. I like I'm l uh let's I'm committed to you. We're committed, that's all we need, right? Yeah. And it was interesting because the conflicts got so emotional that we ended up going into couples therapy, which we talked about doing anyway as future clergy people. We thought therapy was important. And what got kind of unearthed along the way was this idea of different understandings of what marriage really means. Yeah, different motivations of why to engage in it. And the kind of conversations we had ended up creating what has now allowed us to thrive and flourish 20 years later. But it wasn't because we immediately clicked and said, ah, we know exactly what this means, and we are on the same page. It was actually the exact opposite. We had really deep-rooted antagonism challenge that felt like our understanding was an inherent threat to the others. Yeah. Okay. I mean, how long did it take for you guys to figure it out and land on getting married? We were in active conversations for almost two years about it. We stayed in therapy for another 12 after that, you know, so it was a great time to go on this journey. But it was interesting because in that time we had to unpack a lot of things. We had a lot of baggage. Is this for us? Is this for other people? Is this to to gain the esteem or the sense of it being real and official? Um, is it somehow denigrating the connection because we need some external sign?

SPEAKER_02 7:43

Oh, speaking our language, man. Yeah. We have to go into all those different areas.

unknown 7:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

Wow. That's all the questions we're asking. Yeah. One of my favorite things about Judaism is that a lot of the teachings and stories are kind of vague, and you get to like bring to it what you want or like just actively engage in conversation, and some person might read one line and take it one way, and some person might take it the other way. And like the point is to sort of intellectually spar over these things. Like it's just that's core to the religion. And I'm curious if there are teachings or thoughts about marriage that are in these texts and books and what they say.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

Absolutely. So there's a frame in Judaism that the only pathway to wisdom is to sit in learning in the context of a relationship with someone that you disagree with. The mechanism is called chavruta, um, which means to learn in fellowship, but it comes from the same root as chaver, friend. Uh and the ideal study partner is the one who disagrees with you on everything. That the goal is that if you are sitting with somebody that you are in agreement with, you actually won't hone or deepen your understanding because they're just backpatting you. That the only way you grow is actually through friction and challenge. And that is very countercultural to the world we live in right now. Most of us, whether we have actively done it or or not, we end up finding ourselves in rather homogenous bubbles with people that agree with us. And we see people who disagree with us as a threat to our own being or safety or understanding of the world. And so that to me is fundamental to what is a good marriage. Healthy relationship has to have friction, in my opinion. And what makes friction complicated is that that friction can create the fire of warmth and illumination. And that friction can also be the thing that creates the fire of destruction. I think sometimes what we lift up is and venerate is the idea of compatibility, of like we're in perfect harmony and true love is where we are simply dancing in tandem together and um there is no challenge or threat. And for me, that's the recipe for a relationship that stagnates or that sets itself up for the moment where a person disagrees, there's no texture, there's no foundation on which to handle that disagreement. So I'm really a believer that the healthiest of relationships require that friction. And then the nature is like, how do we end up cultivating that friction in a way that is as positive and generative and not fall into the pitfalls of destruction?

SPEAKER_01 10:10

I love the like fire as a warming tool or a destructive tool. I can hold both. Does the Torah ever say like a union between people should look like this or be like this? Like, is there language about marriage specifically?

SPEAKER_00 10:25

Aaron Powell In the Torah itself, there's definitely references all over the place of people coming together. This idea of what is the existential human yearning, to me, I think got it right. That fundamentally every one of us is on a search for belonging. We need to know that we're not alone. And it doesn't require marriage to feel like you're not alone. It doesn't require belonging to a community, it doesn't require a lot of things. But all of these structures are there to help inspire that feeling of belonging. And because of the intimacy that's connoted with marriage, it in some ways is a great test case to better understand this idea of do I believe that I actually can belong with another person? Or do I believe that there's any pathway where I could feel a sense of belonging without a person?

SPEAKER_01 11:08

I love that. Like healthy difference and as a tool for growth and also just like belonging and connection as just a such a natural human instinct, like the core to everything.

SPEAKER_02 11:19

Exactly. So on this topic of like uh healthy friction, obviously being with someone in a long-term partnership, you're gonna want to be in friction with that person so you can grow, but you don't want to be in too much friction. And my question to you is how do you know if the friction you're experiencing is too much friction and it's time to part ways? Beautiful question.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

Because I think we are definitely in an era, and I definitely am in a place where I've been with people where I would say uncoupling and divorce has been a sacred and important act. Because any healthy relationship has rupture in it. And many people, when they encounter a place of rupture, they say, we are done. That's it. And at least in my frame, in a kind of more spiritual lens, rupture is an inevitability. We are going to disappoint the people we care about. To answer your question, this is the image that I will often give to people. There was uh once a man who brought two boats out into a lake, and he ties the two boats together. And across the shared deck of the two ships, he builds a palace. As long as the ships are bound together, the palace stands. But the moment the ships pull away from each other, the palace collapses. And what I love about this image is for two ships to be bound together, there is tension there. One boat might be one of going in one direction, the other might be wanting to go in the other direction. But being bound together, they're both held back a little bit. But there's a grand building project that is only made possible because those two ships are lashed together. This is the image I think for couples to sit in. Is when there's a rupture, when the boats pull apart, do you believe that the building project is worthwhile enough to say I'm gonna tether myself again and dive back into building? Or does the building project not feel important enough, necessary enough? Do I think I could do it on my own better? Do I think I could do it with somebody else else better? Um, that I think is where you really get to have that limits test. So do you believe that you are building something grand that could never exist in any other setting? If the answer to that question is yes, then it's worth all the tension, the friction, the challenge staying together.

SPEAKER_02 13:32

Yeah. Okay. But like, what if one person, I love our project and I think we can make it, and the other person's like, I don't think our project is worth it.

SPEAKER_00 13:43

Then it's It only takes one person to cut the bonds. Oof. So it takes a lot more energy to create something. I don't believe that marriage is the only way to find belonging in the world. I know plenty of people who have never been married and will never be married that have completely full and fulfilled lives. So for anyone who's saying this is the only way to happiness and satisfaction, I vehemently disagree with them. However, part of what marriage does is it acknowledges we cannot create the grandest building project on our own, and we can't build a palace without a willingness to diminish ourselves and to bind ourselves in some solid structure. That to me is a kind of a spiritual lesson that I take in my own life. Almost every one of us at some point recognizes there's only so much a person can do on their own. At some point we realize we are actually dependent on networks and constellations of people in our life. And marriage gives you the most intense, the most intimate, sometimes people would say the most challenging chance to experiment with this idea of do you actually believe that you can be bound to other people? Do you believe deep down that you are needed and necessary and that another person is needed and necessary in this world? Wow.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

I think sometimes our culture can like focus too much on the interpersonal and these little small moments and like friction and tension and ruptures. But if you can zoom out and like see what is being built on top of you, there's like so much value there. And I think it's a beautiful image in my head. Something you mentioned was like the way that the tie is like restricting in some way. And I think that's something I've thought about in Judaism in some ways, whether it's like being kosher is like there are uh things on the menu you can't eat and being married, there are things you can't do, and people you can't be with and lives you can't live. Um can you talk a little bit about restriction or if if there's beauty in restriction, how do you think about that?

SPEAKER_00 15:40

Absolutely. I you know, and there's lots of different ways people use this image is you know, the most important part of a piece of art is the frame. You know, that boundary in many ways is what helps give definition distinction. So, in my opinion, you have never really fully made a choice until you've also chosen what you're not going to do. And that dual-sided nature of choice means to be the fullest version of ourselves, we are constantly having to decide both what we are and what we are not. So many of us privilege freedom above all else. And there is nothing wrong with freedom. But imagine a world of absolute freedom where anyone could do anything they wanted at any moment in time. The chaos that would ensue. Now, there are people who believe this is the dream. For me, the chaos that would ensue would mean we would have no ability to trust anything. I walk down the sidewalks of New York City because I trust that most sane people are not going to drive on the sidewalks and that it's relatively safe to walk on the sidewalks. If we lived in a world where there weren't social norms, where there weren't kind of covenantal agreements we all adhere to generally, it'd be crazy. Then it would be crazy. And so you can map that macro into the micro and to say, if I go and say I will do anything I want in any moment, what element what elevates one moment to be sacred over another? What makes one person more valuable or more holy or or more beautiful or more blessed in my life than another? So for me, the boundaries which typically people rail against is being look, this is so oppressive and restrictive, they can be. But if they help elevate the sense of sanctity, the sanct sense of distinction, then they actually are something important in life. So the the word holy in Judaism is the word uh cut uh kadosh or kadesh. And that root means distinct. Um, it is something that's saying I am being willing to separate one thing from another, one moment from another moment, one person from another moment. So part of where I think some of the challenge with marriage comes is can I really say I'm willing to put one person at the center of my universe above everyone else, no matter what? It's a crazy and almost wild endeavor to say, I want to bind my boat to another person, even though this person is ever evolving and changing. And I have no idea who they're gonna be in five years or in 10 years or in 20 years. And they had no idea who I'm gonna be. Yeah. That's a wild adventure to do. But it's in some ways the way in which we show our belief and faith that by showing that distinction, by showing our willingness to embark on that adventure, we are able to do something that could never be accomplished otherwise.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

Aaron Powell And Emily, are you how's that sound to you? Like, do you know what I mean? Like, I are you drawn to lashing yourself to someone, namely me? Is that an exciting idea for you? Does that freak you out?

SPEAKER_01 18:39

I like Thank you. As you're speaking, I'm like, wow, this is such a big step into the unknown, and we're like so attached to this story, and there are like so many marriages that end badly, and like so much hurt and pain, and like still culturally, we're like so enamored with this idea that like you bind yourself to someone else and there's like more to gain than there is to lose.

SPEAKER_02 19:06

Do you think there's more to gain than there is to lose? If we're two boats that are allowed to each other, what are we building?

SPEAKER_01 19:12

I mean, everything good in our life I can trace back to you and me. Um, all our friends, all the risks I've taken, all the people I've met, all the things I've done, things I've accomplished. I feel we like buoy each other and are like accelerants.

SPEAKER_00 19:30

So are you okay if I throw questions at you both? So I I'm curious then, as you look at Emily, I'm wondering if we can go kind of a little deeper. What are the ways that Emily challenges you to grow? Oh my god. Meaning, how has she fundamentally created that friction for you in a way that you recognize that you are a different and better person, not because of all the backpats, but because of the opposite?

SPEAKER_02 19:55

Yeah. Well, I mean, it's very it's a very timely question. I feel that this is one of the main things I love about my relationship with Emily, is she really is different from me. And, you know, if I'm in a good mood, I would describe it as she calls me into a into the man I'd like to be. And then if I'm in a bad mood, I'll be like, this is really annoying that I have to be, you know, making adjustments to accommodate this person that I decided to lash myself to. But 95% of the time I'm feeling the first way. I put myself on the a performance improvement plan this year. So after a conversation with her, where she said, Hey, I would, you know, as we look towards a life together and having children together, if we're gonna bring your life into this world, I kind of need you to be like super emotionally regulated and never snapping at me or being, you know, aggressive or angry or really direct in your communication or which is kind of new for me. So I'm really working on that. She, you know, would like for us to have a she would like to be more held in the relationship. If she's gonna have a child, she wants to be able to be 100% focused on the child. And then I'm the person who's booking the flights and making sure that the logistics of our life are happening, which I also think is really nice. I like I I would love to fill that role for her. So there's a bunch of different stuff where she is asking me and kind of calling me into a way of being that I've always wanted for myself. I would love to be more high-functioning and be more, you know, on top of things and organized. I would love to be extremely nice to every single person, no matter what mood I'm in or how much sleep I got. These are things that I really want for myself. But she's the she's the person in my life who's been like, hey, I know you really well, and this is how I think you can be better for yourself. And by the way, I need you to be better for me. And I really feel that very strongly. What about you, Emily? Do you feel, Rabbi Ben explained, that you're in relationship with someone often who's calling you into a different way of being through friction? Do you feel like I'm actually serving that role for you at all?

SPEAKER_01 21:53

In my head, I like have my internal operating system and like the core of my soul, and just like the little flame that guides. Me in different directions and makes me say the things I say and do the things I do. And I feel that living tying myself to you and feeling so close to you and all the ups and downs of life and emotion and things going on and like all those nouns, like give me another operating system that's not necessarily mine, but it's like another one I can tap into or know very deeply. And it's like so different from mine, but I can feel myself guided by two operating systems at times where they're like, it's like the best of you and the best of me. And I can like it's this like beautiful Frankenstein other thing where I feel like textures and threads of you when I'm uh in conversation with somebody or driving around, like some thing that you might say or do. And I feel rather than like have one soul, I have like two souls with me. But also this like third thing that's us. And there's just so many like fingerprints of you all over me and my life and my internal systems. So I think that's like where I feel the bond more so than I feel it in like our shared home or our shared car or our shared kids.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

And not that you need my commentary on this, but again, I think in a world that tends to celebrate the shared car, the shared home, the shared symbols that we curate so the world can see and things like this, we tend to venerate, in my opinion, the wrong foundation stones of relationship. And both of you are probably more enlightened than me, okay? But I'm a very uh stubborn person. I'm a I'm a wanderless person. I'm a person who's constantly looking to step into the wilderness. I'm constantly looking to upend what feels constant. I'm constantly, I guess this is my own paradox of being constant, inconstant. Um, but I'm I'm often in the place of dreaming of what comes next and trying to reach for that. I married the exact opposite. So I'm a seeker soul. Micah is a builder soul. She wants things to be static, she wants stability, she wants to have the same routine. Um and for her, the dream is more time at home. For me, the dream is seeing a new land with new eyes. And that tension has created a far more dynamic, wondrous, and sometimes challenging life together than we could be apart. And if we didn't have the commitment, the thickness of that covenant, in the moments where those challenges are real, in walking away, I would have missed the opportunity. This is just me, is I would have reached for the convenience of getting a backpack in the moment of feeling alone rather than being like, well, I bound myself to this person, and so there must be some value here. I'm gonna see where this go takes us.

SPEAKER_02 24:41

Yeah. Okay. I want to transition into a slightly different track just because we have a opportunity to hit a couple of these, because I've always been fascinated by a couple of things. But basically, I find the Jewish approach to marriage really, really interesting. I want to ask about the ketubah, but then I want to ask about other c couple things. But first, tell us about the ketubah because this probably will help us, you know, in our thinking.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

Sure. Most people will talk about a ketubah as a wedding contract, a vow and intention. And it's not really accurate. So the original ketubah, which goes back 2,000 years, um, was, I would say, one of the first proto-feminist documents. It was really one of the world's first prenuptial agreements. What people don't re- really know is that the original ketuba was actually a document that articulated what would happen if the marriage didn't work out. Okay. And so the traditional text, which is written in Aramaic, the lingua franca of the time, basically said that for a bride, keep in mind this is a world where they were only imagining straight couples, okay? So for the bride, living in a world where women were considered chattel, property to be owned, um, property couldn't own property. And so the problem with divorce was that if a woman was owned by her father's household and then married into her husband's household, and then the marriage didn't work out, if her father's household was no longer around, she would be left destitute. And so what the Katuba originally was about was saying if this marriage doesn't work out, the groom will give the bride X amount of money in order to ensure that she has financial viability.

SPEAKER_02 26:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

What it meant was that you had to bring this very pragmatic idea that yes, we are tethering our ships together, but there is the possibility that this doesn't work out, and we need to make sure that both ships are able to still float.

SPEAKER_02 26:28

Yeah. So different looking at it more realistically and saying, hey, like practically this is how you will be taken care of and how you're gonna make sure you have a good life. I'm just much more drawn to that than till death to us part.

SPEAKER_01 26:39

I dig it to uh I find Judaism really like pragmatic and like this world focused. And it's not like till forever and then we'll die in each other's arms and we'll live happily ever after in heaven, or like it's not like I'm gonna do everything I can to like get to heaven after this. It's like we're here now, and like what do we do now to be like thoughtful, good citizens, good partners, good friends, good people. Yeah. And I feel like this is like a perfect example of that. Like, what's this world ask of us and how do we do it well?

SPEAKER_02 27:04

Yeah. Okay. And another thing, another thing that uh is interesting is this thing called, I don't know how to pronounce it, but ona, the wife's right to sexual satisfaction being an obligation to the husband. Let's hear about that a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 27:18

Yeah. And and I think this is so so th this really comes originally in the Talmud, so a collection of rabbinic writings from about 1600 years ago. And depending on um the man's again, sorry for all the straight nomenclature, but that's the world that it's being written in. Depending on the man, the the husband's uh career, he would be obligated to sexually pleasure his wife certain number of times. Depending if he was a merchant, it was X number of times, if he was a local trader X number of times.

SPEAKER_02 27:49

Yeah, what if you're a fledgling podcaster?

SPEAKER_00 27:51

What's the I mean, what's the what's the oblig what's the what's the I would say the daily obligation is very high. So I'm just giving you a heads up. So this gets expanded by later rabbis to see that uh in Judaism, sex is not just the means through procreation, it is a blessing unto itself. And this idea that there are sexual obligations that are not just about monogamy and you know staying faithful, but about the idea that sex has to be a way that you express your love and it has to be one of the responsibilities you take on. So just as I imagine the two of you figure out how you divide your household responsibilities and you navigate uh parts of life, part of those responsibilities are how you take care of each other, and part of how you take care of each other is sexually.

SPEAKER_02 28:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:37

You know, two layers of life that we almost never talk about openly in American society is sex and money. Um, most of us are not openly talking about how much we make a year with our friends and family. Most of us are not talking about our kinks or our sex life openly, not in a crass way, but really in an open, vulnerable way with most people in our life. And as a result, we really don't develop a vocabulary around it. And even in our most intimate relationships, we aren't really honest about it. And when we're not honest about the things that are essential and fundamental to life, it means we're eroding our foundation from the very get-go. So this is one of these things where having a concept in Judaism of saying, like, sexual pleasure is responsibility may sound backwards to a lot of people. But for most of us who have lived enough life, we start to recognize that sometimes we wait for passion to be what drives us and and take sex and put it into a larger landscape of life. If you bring care to each other only when you just feel it in the moment, you are going to miss being there for each other in the most important moments. It is when you are exhausted at the end of the day and you've had a terrible, horrible day, and you muster the ability to still ask the other person how their day was and listen, that is way more important than waiting for the moment when you yourself are like, I really want to hear how your day was. Yeah. Knowing the other person is feeling alone or needing to feel beautiful or feeling um sexually vibrant. It is way more important to respond to the person when you see their need blooming than when you're waiting for your own need to arise, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 30:14

Yet again, Judaism being extremely cool.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

I liked learning about Ketuba and Ona, what was it? Is there anything else? Like any other things to There are a few.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

So there's two other things that I I think are maybe worth mentioning. And again, I every faith tradition and everyone's What's this list called?

SPEAKER_02 30:32

Is this called epic Jewish stuff? Like what what is Yeah, why not?

SPEAKER_00 30:38

Let's start it. Yeah. I love that. I really like the list. I like this. It's a great list. You know, every faith tradition is I'm sure has got its own you know strengths and images. Uh but it you know, a couple of those that may be helpful to talk about. So in um a Jewish wedding, the canopy that you're married under is called a chupa. Um, and it's a metaphor for the home that you're building. Open on all four sides, and the idea that all of your guests and your family there are in many ways being invited kind of metaphorically into your home. But it creates the image, and I think what the right pathway towards a wedding should be, which is thinking about what is the home, the life, if you want to take a bigger, expansive definition of that. What's the life that we're architecting together? What are the pillars of it? What do we want inside of it? How do we have a wedding ritual that is reflective of our life, our home, not something generic, not something we find on the knot.com or something, you know? But if we go and use that as an image of saying this is the day where the centerpiece of this day is a representation of what we are architecting together, it's saying what we should be centering is our life. It is that building project, it's that palace on our two ships. So that I find to be a really helpful image. You know, the whole wedding industry is trying to inspire you to spend as much money as possible in order to appease other people's needs and wants. Yeah. And the most countercultural thing you can do is to center you and what's authentic to you. So I love that. The other image is that the the most famous part of a Jewish wedding is. You know, the very last moment of a Jewish wedding is traditionally you break a glass. And there's lots and lots of different interpretations and understandings of this, but at its core, a wedding begins with a whole glass and raising a glass of wine and it ends with a shattered glass. And I love this image that we begin the journey of marriage with broken pieces. For us to think about the idea of soulmates or, as you said, like till death to us part, this idea of this perpetual boundedness that is never severed, never fractured, um, to me is not the image that reflects life as a whole. We break the people we love most, we break their hearts. It happens. Wait, you cannot be intimately bound to another person without, in the process, there being some moodedness that comes. And so that image of how do we see that in the fragility is also the strength? How do we see that in these images of the broken shards is the very recipe of how we go and continue to pick up that building project? That to me, I think, is a really powerful image to bring into life and relationship so that when we hit those rockier moments, those moments where the person is pushing us to grow, we don't say, Whoa, hey, I was looking for a backpack. I'm turning around. But we can remember those broken pieces to be like, no, I actually signed up for this. I wanted this person to break me down, not in a unhealthy way, but so that I don't become reified in stagnancy, that I am actually pushed and broken to continue to grow and reach and strive.

SPEAKER_02 33:44

Yeah. Are you down for that, Emily? Are you getting are you ready to get stomped by our life? Okay, this is so fun. We ask this to every guest. You knew Emily when she was a wee type growing up, going to Hebrew school with you. Do you think we should get legally married?

SPEAKER_00 34:04

This is something that as a rabbi, I'm often asked to tell people what to do. And I feel very strongly that uh for me to do that removes the whole point and purpose of this moment. Is it your agency that is what makes the sacred and powerful. But I would leave you with this. Marcel Proust said the great voyage of discovery is not in seeing new lands, but in having new eyes. To me, the institution of marriage is a pathway to ensure that you are embarking on an adventure to see if you can actually believe that you belong and to be with a person that constantly challenges you to grow into the best version of yourself. If you believe that you have found that person, then if I were you, I would do all you can to bind those boats together and to start building. That was a really good answer, man.

SPEAKER_02 34:59

EJS part five. EJS part five is just, God, if I get if I get study enough, maybe I'll have some unbelievable choice things to reference. Proust, you say? I'll go look him up. Marcel Proust. Uh Rabbi Ben, thank you so much for chatting with us today. It was so great. Thanks for coming on the show. Such a joy to be with you both.

SPEAKER_01 35:19

Thank you. Thank you so much, Ben. Loved having you on the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 35:32

I feel so lucky that we got to essentially do a premarital counseling session with someone who does so many premarital counseling sessions for the people who are officially part of his congregation. He's really, really full of wisdom. And he's so cool. Like I love that he was originally super not interested in getting married to the point where it actually caused issues in his relationship, and they had to go to couples therapy to figure out if they were gonna get married or not. Like that's how you know non-traditional he is to be to begin with. So I I kind of feel like half Mormon, half Jewish household growing up.

SPEAKER_01 36:05

Very interesting.

SPEAKER_02 36:06

Totally. Yeah. I think that the Ona is so cool.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

Yeah. I also love that it's like it's so not shame-based and so not like sex is for procreation only. Anything else is bad.

SPEAKER_02 36:19

Yeah. Yeah. Is there there's a pragmatism to this Judaism stuff that I feel really drawn to where it's like, well, you know, depending on your job, you might not have the time to do all the pleasuring.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

So yeah, I wanted to dig in on that. Like, what do you think the factors were for each job?

SPEAKER_02 36:34

I thought it was always time. I thought it was time. I work at the Splinter Factory. How many times do I have to do it?

SPEAKER_01 36:40

Did it make you want to be more Jewish or spiritual?

SPEAKER_02 36:43

Yeah. Yeah, it it it did. I just feel that he's so smart and I like talking to him and I like being in his vibe. I feel he's in a world where I feel kind of starved of amazing, strong men. You know, there's so few. I have some great ones in my life, but there's still so few. I'm just looking for more. So I really, I really would love to be more aligned in that way. Uh, other stuff that's so it does me is this this idea that friction is good, that the friction that we provide to each other, that's good. We are helping each other rise to the occasion. And I've really felt that both directions.

SPEAKER_01 37:17

Yeah. I really loved on that note just the like way that fire can warm you or fire can destroy you. And it has like this two powers, one very renewing and one very destructive. Um and I liked your question of like, how do you know it's time or the friction is too much? Yeah. I liked the idea that like divorce can be sacred too. Like we think of marriage as this like beautiful covenant between two people and it makes your life better. And like at the same time, divorce can be a covenant between two people to not continue and it can make your life better. Yeah. And it kind of removes some of the stigma or shame around it. And it could be like a really conscious loving choice for both yourself and your partner.

SPEAKER_02 38:00

I totally agree with you. Emily, this conversation with Rabbi Ben, did it make you want to put a pebble in the bucket of let's get legally married to each other, or a pebble in the bucket of let's stay dating. Marriage is not required for us to have our amazing life.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

I'm putting a pebble in the bucket of get married. I think he framed it as a really cool adventure and a big leap into the unknown. And has a high potential for growth and change and making life bigger and more beautiful and more bountiful. But it's risky and it's like a cool risk and like kind of a romantic one to take. So I felt excited by his framing.

SPEAKER_02 38:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

How about you?

SPEAKER_02 38:45

First, I loved that he really stressed that you don't have to be married to feel like you belong. That's a way that you can be belonging. And he has this idea that you know humans need to belong, and that's really good for you to belong. And getting married to someone is another way to belong, and it's an exercise in belonging with someone, finding your home in someone. But I just like that he said you don't need to do it. But that said, I would love to do that with you. I think that this adventure that we're considering of, hey, are we gonna put some real stakes in the ground on what we are and will there be consequences if we separate? That sounds like that's actually part of the power is rolling the dice on it, you know, like jumping into the unknown. We went to these friends of ours, this unbelievable wedding this past weekend with their names are Maddie Jesse, and they had these vows. Maddie said to Jesse, that she doesn't know what is gonna happen in her lifetime, you know, uh with with Jesse. She has no idea, but man, she feels good about rolling the dice on it and doing that with him. And no matter what it looks like, she just feels like that's what she wants. And she could have any number of lifetimes with any number of people. I don't know, there's a beauty in the limiting, there's a beauty in saying, no, this is what I'm deciding on. And I just feel so drawn to building that with you that I feel more and more as we do these episodes, okay with the turning off of options in my life and the actual risk of what we're doing. Uh acknowledging that as that's part of the magic of what we're doing is we are strapping dynamite to our chest together and jumping out of a plane and being like, we'll see what happens. Like, I want to do that with you. I don't want to do that with someone else. I love the way that you think about stuff. I love the way that you I love your process. And I've seen a lot of the dark parts. I'm sure I'm gonna see more dark parts. But I like the process. So yeah, I just feel excited about it, which is kind of cool. We're both Pebblin Yes, which is really nice.

SPEAKER_01 40:47

Yeah. I love you. That was so nice.

SPEAKER_02 40:50

Yeah, I love you too. It was a great wedding, this Maddie and Jesse wedding. Damn.

SPEAKER_01 40:54

No, it was amazing.

SPEAKER_02 40:55

No, it was really beautiful. It was fucking amazing.

SPEAKER_01 40:57

We kind of just want to retweet that.

SPEAKER_02 40:59

Retweet. Should we get married is an original series by Easily Wowed and Bad Cooley Productions. This episode was created by me, Max Injerecki.

SPEAKER_01 41:09

And me, Emily Carter.

SPEAKER_02 41:11

And our producer, Ramoy Phillip.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

Theme music is the song Fake Romantic by the band Melt, logo and brand design by Madeline Vogue.

SPEAKER_02 41:19

Sound design and mixing by Ramoy Phillip.

SPEAKER_01 41:21

There are so many of you out there who are asking these exact same questions, and we don't all have to investigate marriage on our own. Subscribe to Should We Get Married and learn with us as we make our decision.

SPEAKER_02 41:31

See you next time.